Comments on: The Brown Act of 1953: how this positive policy now negatively affects civic collaboration http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/ a world uncommon Thu, 09 Feb 2012 14:03:36 +0000 hourly 1 By: alan p http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48870 alan p Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:31:19 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48870 Its interesting...I've seen this "1/3rd of people don't have access" used more and more often recently as reasons not to use the 'net - and not just in Gov't, its a useful naysayers tool in other areas too. Often of course, when you investigate current approaches you find that "real" access (as opposed to theoretical access) to them is also quite low. Its interesting…I’ve seen this “1/3rd of people don’t have access” used more and more often recently as reasons not to use the ‘net – and not just in Gov’t, its a useful naysayers tool in other areas too. Often of course, when you investigate current approaches you find that “real” access (as opposed to theoretical access) to them is also quite low.

]]> By: Musings & Meanderings » Blog Archive » If Twine is the Semantic Web… http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48747 Musings & Meanderings » Blog Archive » If Twine is the Semantic Web… Sat, 27 Oct 2007 00:18:37 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48747 [...] and benefit from, together, on a semantic web. Yesterday I read Tara Hunt’s post on The Brown Act of 1953, and was struck, as always, by the casualness with which many embrace these online tools, and also [...] [...] and benefit from, together, on a semantic web. Yesterday I read Tara Hunt’s post on The Brown Act of 1953, and was struck, as always, by the casualness with which many embrace these online tools, and also [...]

]]> By: Vera http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48741 Vera Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:28:53 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48741 Reading your post, it occured to me that the average 'older' citizen who may not be on the internet because they are wary of it, are almost certainly not wary of their TV. In the US you have both Public Access and Government access. If Public Access television could be used as a trusted medium by those wary of the internet, then perhaps finding a way to connect all the media could be part of a solution. For example, a citizen who could, say, call in to a bank of volunteer operators on a community organized participation program would effectively have access. Reading your post, it occured to me that the average ‘older’ citizen who may not be on the internet because they are wary of it, are almost certainly not wary of their TV.

In the US you have both Public Access and Government access. If Public Access television could be used as a trusted medium by those wary of the internet, then perhaps finding a way to connect all the media could be part of a solution.

For example, a citizen who could, say, call in to a bank of volunteer operators on a community organized participation program would effectively have access.

]]> By: Being Amber Rhea » Blog Archive » links for 2007-10-24 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48670 Being Amber Rhea » Blog Archive » links for 2007-10-24 Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:33:55 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48670 [...] The Brown Act of 1953: how this positive policy now negatively affects civic collaboration | ::Horse... Interesting post. Not sure I agree with all of it, but it’s good food for thought. I’ll let it marinate for a while. (tags: web2.0 politics government internet web community) [...] [...] The Brown Act of 1953: how this positive policy now negatively affects civic collaboration | ::Horse… Interesting post. Not sure I agree with all of it, but it’s good food for thought. I’ll let it marinate for a while. (tags: web2.0 politics government internet web community) [...]

]]> By: Timothy Moenk http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48666 Timothy Moenk Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:23:06 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48666 I think this is going to take a higher level of leadership then is usually needed to bring tech into even the most stringent of corporate environments. Being involved in politics this year, I've been thinking alot about how to bring social media into governance and my conclusion is that while seemingly dysfunctional now (or rather not optimally functional) such rules were put in place for a reason, and in order to move forward we really need to rethink the framework by which we conduct our democratic civic processes while also navigating the current system itself to get these changes to occur. So, I think your conclusion is spot on. For those not networked into government, this looks like a chicken and an egg problem. Same for most people who are in government who don't have the knowledge or the time to learn how progressive civic engagement can work and its' benefits. I really don't think this is a chicken and an egg problem though; I think we just need more people who 'get it' to take leadership in introducing these ideas, tools and processes into governance. All the political grassroots web stuff going on right now may be developing a lot of that expertise in just the right places. We'll see. I'm curious as to how other countries that are a bit further along then we are have been handling these types of bureaucratic issues. Oi. Legacy code. I think this is going to take a higher level of leadership then is usually needed to bring tech into even the most stringent of corporate environments.

Being involved in politics this year, I’ve been thinking alot about how to bring social media into governance and my conclusion is that while seemingly dysfunctional now (or rather not optimally functional) such rules were put in place for a reason, and in order to move forward we really need to rethink the framework by which we conduct our democratic civic processes while also navigating the current system itself to get these changes to occur. So, I think your conclusion is spot on.

For those not networked into government, this looks like a chicken and an egg problem. Same for most people who are in government who don’t have the knowledge or the time to learn how progressive civic engagement can work and its’ benefits.

I really don’t think this is a chicken and an egg problem though; I think we just need more people who ‘get it’ to take leadership in introducing these ideas, tools and processes into governance. All the political grassroots web stuff going on right now may be developing a lot of that expertise in just the right places. We’ll see.

I’m curious as to how other countries that are a bit further along then we are have been handling these types of bureaucratic issues.

Oi. Legacy code.

]]> By: Deb Bryant http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48437 Deb Bryant Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:57:55 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48437 Great post, great discussion. Day job; I work extensively with the public sector in adoption of open source in IT Operations. Community jobs; Special District Commissioner and member of a local land use planning association that is part of our state's legal framework for same. This virtual participation challenge has a deeper twist to it in our small coastal community, where half the homes are second homes, and using tools like Google Groups become a way to keep the non-resident owners (also with a stake in the community) involved in community planning. These property owners still must be present to vote in person, something that Oregon's Open Meetings laws require, but even the notion of Google Groups for conducting any subcommittee or work-group activities quickly came into question by the county. We've successfully used Google Groups to collect ideas, share materials prior to meetings, schedule meetings and so forth, but the key is that no decisions or discussion leading up to a decision can be made. Great opportunity for vetting a meritocracy of ideas in the public interest, but not quite there. Hm. I've been involved in the development of public broadband policy for a number of years now and think we're just a half of a generation from seeing this change (as in more virtual participation). As policy makers become more comfortable with technology I predict they'll be better able to create a "letter of law" making way for use of these community-based collaboration tools in a way that is consistent with the spirit of the open meetings laws on the books today. Great post, great discussion. Day job; I work extensively with the public sector in adoption of open source in IT Operations. Community jobs; Special District Commissioner and member of a local land use planning association that is part of our state’s legal framework for same. This virtual participation challenge has a deeper twist to it in our small coastal community, where half the homes are second homes, and using tools like Google Groups become a way to keep the non-resident owners (also with a stake in the community) involved in community planning. These property owners still must be present to vote in person, something that Oregon’s Open Meetings laws require, but even the notion of Google Groups for conducting any subcommittee or work-group activities quickly came into question by the county. We’ve successfully used Google Groups to collect ideas, share materials prior to meetings, schedule meetings and so forth, but the key is that no decisions or discussion leading up to a decision can be made. Great opportunity for vetting a meritocracy of ideas in the public interest, but not quite there. Hm.

I’ve been involved in the development of public broadband policy for a number of years now and think we’re just a half of a generation from seeing this change (as in more virtual participation). As policy makers become more comfortable with technology I predict they’ll be better able to create a “letter of law” making way for use of these community-based collaboration tools in a way that is consistent with the spirit of the open meetings laws on the books today.

]]> By: This Week’s Links on Ma.gnolia | ::HorsePigCow:: marketing uncommon http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48373 This Week’s Links on Ma.gnolia | ::HorsePigCow:: marketing uncommon Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:00:31 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48373 [...] ARCHIVES « The Brown Act of 1953: how this positive policy now negatively affects civic collaboration [...] [...] ARCHIVES « The Brown Act of 1953: how this positive policy now negatively affects civic collaboration [...]

]]> By: Mike http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48371 Mike Thu, 18 Oct 2007 05:10:56 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48371 Someone writing a law 54 years ago would not have anticipated new technology. If they were 30 years old, what new communication channels would they have encountered in their lifetime? We're talking radio, print, landline, some tv. Now think about the rate of new technology, and subsequent multiplication of communication channels over the last 10 years. There are several challenges that governments are facing: (1) the increasing diversity of communication channels, combined with the corresponding fragmentation of the target audience over the channels. I call it the digital toaster divide ... I want to communicate with my govt using my internet capable toaster ... I should have as much right to do so, as those iphone people. (2) subsequently, trying to maintain or improve participation, while maintaining or improving customer relationships, while maintaining or dropping costs, with less economies of scale :) (3) writing laws in a technology neutral manner, that achieve the outcomes desired (1) and (2) are encountered by business too; (3) is unique to government Someone writing a law 54 years ago would not have anticipated new technology. If they were 30 years old, what new communication channels would they have encountered in their lifetime? We’re talking radio, print, landline, some tv.

Now think about the rate of new technology, and subsequent multiplication of communication channels over the last 10 years.

There are several challenges that governments are facing:

(1) the increasing diversity of communication channels, combined with the corresponding fragmentation of the target audience over the channels. I call it the digital toaster divide … I want to communicate with my govt using my internet capable toaster … I should have as much right to do so, as those iphone people.

(2) subsequently, trying to maintain or improve participation, while maintaining or improving customer relationships, while maintaining or dropping costs, with less economies of scale :)

(3) writing laws in a technology neutral manner, that achieve the outcomes desired

(1) and (2) are encountered by business too; (3) is unique to government

]]> By: angela penny http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48370 angela penny Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:54:22 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48370 Thank you so much for researching this, I had no idea. So that's why we get those incredibly boring cable channels with interminable Board of Supervisor meetings and nothing ever getting done. Just one of the ways that our bureaucracy is set up to discourage involvement. This seems to discriminate against those who can't physically go to meetings. Thank you so much for researching this, I had no idea. So that’s why we get those incredibly boring cable channels with interminable Board of Supervisor meetings and nothing ever getting done. Just one of the ways that our bureaucracy is set up to discourage involvement. This seems to discriminate against those who can’t physically go to meetings.

]]> By: Gabe Wachob http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-48355 Gabe Wachob Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:08:42 +0000 http://www.horsepigcow.com/2007/10/17/the-brown-act-of-1953-how-this-positive-policy-now-negatively-affects-civic-collaboration/#comment-48355 I'm not sure anonymity is always provided at all physical meetings (I don't think thats required by the Brown Act) - but it seems to me that if you really want to be anonymous online and participate in a conversation with an elected - that should be OK. The point of the Brown Act is really accessibility and notice for the public to deliberative meetings of elected and other government officials. I think Tara's points are that some of the requirements are incongrugous with a digitally-mediated discussion, or at least the deliberative, participatory mode of interaction (often asynchronous) that has built itself around things like IRC, wikis, etc... anonymity (or at least psudeonymity?) *is* an important aspect of that! I’m not sure anonymity is always provided at all physical meetings (I don’t think thats required by the Brown Act) – but it seems to me that if you really want to be anonymous online and participate in a conversation with an elected – that should be OK.

The point of the Brown Act is really accessibility and notice for the public to deliberative meetings of elected and other government officials. I think Tara’s points are that some of the requirements are incongrugous with a digitally-mediated discussion, or at least the deliberative, participatory mode of interaction (often asynchronous) that has built itself around things like IRC, wikis, etc… anonymity (or at least psudeonymity?) *is* an important aspect of that!

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