This is a shot of Ryan Carson’s feet, taken at the San Francisco Future of Web Apps. Ryan scored some heat over that particular conference, namely because of the homogeneity of his speaker roster at the time. In his response to this criticism, I gained a great deal of respect for Ryan. He stepped up. He made darn certain that his future conferences reflected a greater diversity….and for the better! I think the Carson conferences are some of the best ones out there…and quite reasonably priced, too, so accessible to non-corporate sponsored types like me.
Not only that, but as a speaker, Ryan and his awesome team (Hi Lisa, Gillian and Mel!), treat you like gold. I felt honored to be asked to be a speaker, but I felt doubly honored that they reached out to help me make the best presentation possible (sending tips, offering help), covered all of my travel expenses (including a gorgeous hotel in Kensington…with a separate room for my teenage son! Talk about cool!) and paid me for the time spent putting a 1/2 day workshop together. I would not only speak at another Carson conference, but I would highly recommend anyone I know speak at their conferences. They also treat their sponsors and their attendees well, being open and generous and offering an incredible value to any who pay.
Through the Carson ability to respond to community feedback and the way they treat others, they’ve created an amazing brand for themselves. People associate Carson conferences with quality and community and they are expanding to many other properties in this area.
Now, in the case of SXSWi, another fave of mine, it’s a bit different. Except for the headliners, none of the speakers I know of are paid nor do they have their travel expenses covered. For sitting on a panel, you are comped a interactive and film badge. Panels, though, require far less prep time in my experience. Usually some conference calls, a bit of research and notes and a good rapport with your fellow panelists. And SXSWi isn’t really about the conference anyway. It’s totally about the community. There are a zillion free or cheap great things to do and parties to go to when you are there. Plus, since everyone in the tech universe are in the same city at a time, it’s a great time to meet all sorts of potential partners, clients and coworkers. Because the community aspect is so strong, travel expenses covered aren’t really essential. There is enough of a value built into being there that it’s worth the $350 return flight on Southwest (for us) and the $400-800 on hotel (some of us share as well). Plus, the ticket price is way reasonable ($325), so the cost of the full 5 days will be lower than the mere ticket price for a 1 day enterprise conference. This means that many artist/student/open source/startupy types will be there.
BlogHer Conferences are similar to SXSWi. The community benefit is enormous and the networking opportunities are high. The cost per ticket is accessibly low and they work with hotels and hostels to keep accommodation reasonable. They even provide free childcare so that moms can enjoy themselves guilt-free (or almost guilt free). I don’t think they even pay the keynote speakers (although I could be wrong about that). They end up delivering a very valuable conference and I walked away this year with alot.
It is perfectly fine for SXSWi and BlogHer to say, “Sorry, we don’t pay for travel expenses”. When I’ve spoken with the organizers of both conferences, they’ve expressed their wish to do so, but have also noted that doing so would mean that they’d have to raise ticket prices, which would end up upsetting the balance of attendees. Both conferences use the panel format in order to respect the time of their speakers and have loads to offer to offset any pangs one may feel at not being reimbursed for time. Still, the lack of reimbursement may have discouraged a potential speaker or two, which I’m certain both organizing teams are aware of and are concerned about (BlogHer has a scholarship fund).
Now, although it may be perfectly fine for conferences like SXSWi and BlogHer to do this, I’ve encountered at least two conferences this year (Defrag and the Affiliate Summit) that don’t have the same community feel that have invited me to speak and also told me, “We don’t cover travel expenses.” On both occasions, I’ve checked the cost of registration and found that it was more than double that of BlogHer or SXSWi. There has also been a healthy list of sponsors listed for both. I don’t think this is cool at all. The organizers stand to make a profit on the conference, but the producers of the content of the conference have to pay their own money towards that.
Now I understand the cost of putting on an event. I’m no stranger to it. I’ve organized several conferences, unconferences and symposiums over the years. BarCampBlock cost us over $24,000 to produce and it was a D.I.Y. (and a very casual) conference. We paid for one venue at $5,500 (2 days) and didn’t have fancy food (although we had enough for over 600!). I’ve also been part of the budgets of many bigger conferences. Ones that cost $500k to produce, but brought in $2M. Unless the speaker was a sponsor or another vendor who paid their way into talking, I’ve found that speaker fees and travel reimbursement are pretty standard. I know that the cost of some of the bigger speakers were offset by collecting sponsors for that spot (“Oracle presents Blah Blah”).
Expecting someone to donate their time to making your event ‘da bomb’ may be okay for someone who works at Yahoo! and needs to promote their latest work, but is problematic for an independent contractor. For me, time spent preparing a presentation can run over 40 hours between research, writing, designing, practicing and tweaking, and those 40 hours detract from time I can bill to clients (at $200/hour, that is lost revenue of $8,000). Then there is the fact that, when traveling, I’m not there for clients. We’ve actually lost a client or two over our travel schedule. That’s more revenue lost. When a conference says, “Now you have to pay for a hotel and your airfare to get here,” they are expecting me to spend another $500-1000 (at least). Maybe, just maybe, if our company desperately needed new clients we would be ahead after all of this, but I’ve gotten far better leads doing my own events and from word of mouth than I’ve ever experienced at conferences.
And this becomes even MORE problematic when we take into account other women speaking (not that I’m an exception to the following rule). We’ve talked alot about “why women don’t speak” on the BlogHer Women in Technology listserv. One of the number one reasons that women give is the COST of speaking. Many of the very talented women I know are also independent contractors, but they are also juggling family lives. They would have to arrange for childcare and getting time to do client work is precious enough, let alone trying to work 40 hours on a presentation. And these women on the list are pretty affluent. I can’t imagine women and men from lower income families or students working on cool projects…not paying for travel becomes a barrier for entry for those willing, but unable to afford giving their time to another’s successful event in the hopes that they may glean some interest for their own business. Money would be wiser spent in a yellow pages ad!
And it isn’t really even about the money for me. Not really. It’s more about what an organizer, who is charging $900+/delegate and pulling in a good sponsors list, is saying about how s/he values his/her speakers. If my reimbursement for putting together a presentation that makes your audience happy is worth less to you than the other money you are spending, I feel like an object. And if you didn’t make me feel like an object, maybe I wouldn’t even give a damn. I know lots of people who forget to send in their receipts for reimbursement. Don’t give me a line about ‘community’, either. An event that costs over $900 is not a “community” event, it’s a corporate event. An event that has no community activities (the social abundance of SXSWi or the generosity and togetherness of BlogHer) is not a community event. An event that exploits and undervalues its speakers, who ARE from the community, is not a community event.
If you are making $$ off of an event, all of the power to you. I applaud you and don’t fault you for that. But you may want to take a lesson from Ryan Carson, who nicely balances making $$ and respecting those who help him make $$. Otherwise, the way you treat others will be your undoing.
And for those of you who are taking these raw deals: STOP IT! You are worth more than that. You know who you are. I know you are doing it to build your business and your reputation, but there are loads of opportunities to do this and be treated fairly. IMO, these conferences exploit your desperation. There are more ways to get yourself out there. Better ways to give. My Mom taught me that if I wanted others to value me, I had to start by valuing myself. At the time, I rolled my eyes, but I totally started understanding that when I became an adult and realized the more I bent to the desires of people who didn’t respect me, the less they respected me. As soon as I walked away to get a better deal, I got their respect.
So the lesson here is that, if you are throwing a for profit conference that looks to be a profit-maker, you need to, at the very least, offer to cover the costs associated with the travel for the speakers. It is their content that will make you look good and they are worth every penny. The place to cut back is NOT on human beings.
(thanks to Brian O for encouraging me to vent this out on my blog…he doesn’t necessarily share my opinion, but he’s right that I should share mine)
August 29th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Wow. I never really thought about the speakers’ opportunity costs of doing an event — nor have I fully understood the underlying economics of putting on an event. Now I see both sides. Thanks for the “Aha!” moment.
August 29th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Thanks Tara,
It is very nice to hear the inside scoop on how some conferences are (un)organized. For the record, I’m on your side. But I do see a huge challenge on the organizers behalf. To balance the paying presenters against the people offering their time for free to a paid house is a daunting task. How would it be possible for anyone to cleanly juggle the agendas, payola, incentives and priorities of all parties involved?
I would like to see open disclosure over who is ‘paid’ and who is ‘paying their own way’ as a part of the presenters description. It may change who i’d want to see when choosing between two events in the same block.
Cheers,
James
August 29th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Tara -
A few points for you…
1. I think you should experience the community for a given conference before you determine it doesn’t measure up to your ideal.
2. You may “understand the cost of putting on an event”, but you have no idea about the economics of Affiliate Summit.
3. I’ve spoken at my share of conferences and never demanded nor received any compensation beyond a conference pass. I’ve been interested and willing to speak, because I wanted to contribute to the community, and knew that if I did a good job, it could benefit me in various ways down the road.
As far as your disdain for Affiliate Summit, I think it’s only fair to provide a complete picture.
In January 2007, when I asked if you were interested in speaking, you replied that it would be a “huge honour.” There was no mention or request of compensation.
On the form where you submitted your proposal, it stated that you would get a complimentary full-conference registration and that “Travel and hotel are not included.”
This was also stated in the confirmation e-mail and on the confirmation page after you submitted your proposal.
It was not until April 2007 that you let us know that you had this super busy schedule that was cutting into your client work, and couldn’t make it unless we covered the travel.
A much simpler and more courteous route would have been to simply not submit a proposal if you weren’t happy with our Draconian policies.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Shawn,
I did not submit a proposal. I wouldn’t have. I have nothing to do with Affiliate Marketing. I was ASKED to come speak (an email on January 30):
Hi Tara -
I’ve been reading through your Pinko Marketing Manifesto and was wondering
if you’d be interested in speaking on that topic at the next Affiliate
Summit.
It’s taking place July 8-10 at the Intercontinental Hotel in Miami.
The show focuses on affiliate marketing, but that inevitably covers
anything that’s going on right now.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Take care,
Shawn
…..
I submitted a proposal because you asked. Since yours was the FIRST EVER CONFERENCE that didn’t offer to pay for travel, I didn’t expect it, so I assumed. That was dumb of me.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Yes, I asked if you were interested in speaking per the e-mail above.
You replied about it being a “huge honour” the next day, and then I replied:
“Thanks for getting back so quick. Would you please go to
http://www.affiliatesummit.com/07e_speakers.php and submit your information
(topic title description, bio, etc.)?”
You did so that day (3:12 PM, Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007), and were presented with the messaging about travel and hotel not being covered.
I’d be happy to provide a screenshot of your submission if you wish.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Thanks for some great insight on this. I’m doubly interested because I’m speaking at a few conferences in the coming year and currently looking at organizing a conference here in Manch-Vegas.
I would be interested to talk to some of the organizers involved with these conferences. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that many of the conferences that take care of their presenters and/or work to keep costs low spent a fair amount of time attending and presenting at conferences before they were organizers. The organizers who take advantage of speakers and charge huge conference fees are likely business guys who are targeting the web industry for profit rather than because they have some sort of personal connection.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
I’d like to see more transparency, too. I think many conferences say “Sponsor” on the speaker slots (and you know you’ll get a pitch of some sort). But when someone asks you to speak, they should be very up front about it: “Hi, I’m running a conference and we don’t have any budget…” Both conferences waited until I had to ’sign’ something before they made it explicit. Whether or not the Affiliate Summit had it on their application page, I missed it (mainly, I think, because he sent me there, so my task was to cut and paste, not read the fine print).
Either way, I understand when a conference doesn’t have the $$ to pay speakers fees, but not paying for travel expenses is quite cheap, especially when you are charging your attendees $975/head. A cost of a return flight to Miami? $550. A cost of a return flight to Denver? $350. You wouldn’t even need to sell one ticket to cover the cost.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Yeah, I can see that. Just like since I spent some time being a waitress during university, I always tip well.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
I’m sure that message was there, Shawn, but when I click a link to enter information into a form, I rarely read all of the text around it. I just assumed you wanted me to enter my information. The first I heard of your lack of covering travel expenses was in the form you asked me to sign that stated I give my presentation to Affiliate for nothing in return (and I believe you didn’t even offer a FULL conference pass…only the day I spoke).
(and when I said I was honoured, I was…I always am to be considered, that doesn’t mean that I want to be used, though).
August 29th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Fair enough that you didn’t see it, but it was there.
The pass has always been a full pass for all days for Affiliate Summit speakers. That was in the text on the proposal, confirmation page and e-mail, too.
As far as getting nothing in return, besides the pass, you could very well go home with new clients.
That speaking role would have continued on as a commercial for you, as we film the sessions and make them available to anybody that wishes to watch them online for free.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Right. Sorry. I got it wrong about the pass.
RE: commercial for me. The reason I told you I was busy with clients was to let you know that there wasn’t that ‘angle’ in it for me. Citizen Agency turns away 5x more clients than we can handle. I also don’t think my style is suited for people looking for affiliate marketing. We’re way too hippie for that.
Thanks for responding, Shawn.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:27 am
actually, tara, convergesouth was probably the first to not offer travel. though i did offer a place to stay.
continue..
August 30th, 2007 at 6:49 am
You are correct about the philosophy and the costs. I run a conference in Arizona for entrepreneurs (www.azentrepreneurship.com), the proceeds of which go to a foundation that teaches entrepreneurship to the underprivileged. Although it is a non-profit, when we do ask people from Silicon Valley to participate –and we do — we offer them expenses. For that reason, we very seldom can ask them because we charge $125 for a full day, most of that going to food.
That’s just a matter of respecting the speaker. Unless you are hawking a product, speaking at a conference does have opportunity costs of all kinds. And putting one on? That’s a huge undertaking.
And you did a kickass job on BarCampBlock.
August 30th, 2007 at 6:49 am
my response:
http://defragcon.com/Blog/?p=118
wherein I am transparent, apologize for where I felt I did wrong, etc….
the thing that actually does hurt is that I know I’m not some evil, money-making, conference huckster — so to be lumped in that group is like a good kick to the stomach.
Tara- I really wish we could’ve spoken about this.
take care – I still hope some day we can meet face to face and talk this through.
ejn
August 30th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Amen and amen. It’s especially rough for people like me who speak for a living. Sure sometimes I provide a discount if it’s a group I really want to be in front of — or if the organizers are scraping the event together.
But the minimum for ANY speaker at ANY conference should be travel and a comp registration.
August 30th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Tara, first of all, thank you for the kind words about the BlogHer community and conference. You have this habit of writing posts that set me off with a looong reply. So, I think you’ve heard about my personal rule before: If a comment I’m leaving exceeds three paragraphs, it is asking to be a post. The comment I was writing here is now instead a post here.
In it I address your issues/question above, from the eprspective of someone who puts on events with lots of speakers, but also as someone who goes out and speaks a lot.
Key point: Conferences are expensive to put on and to attend, and class is the diversity issue we (as a community and industry) probably talk least about. I’m glad you were willing to bring it up!
August 30th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
LOL. ConvergeSouth is like SXSW to me…but isn’t it even cheaper? Like free? Or next to it?
August 30th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
You are taking this post far too personally. It would be great if you could empathize with what I’m saying. I don’t think you are a huckster. You are a businessman. There is nothing wrong with that. But the cost of business is that you need to take some risks. It sounds like you aren’t offering to pay for speaker travel because you don’t want to assume any risk. Currently, you say you have nearly all of the base costs of the event covered by sponsors, but don’t want to offer speakers anything because you don’t know what money you will make from ticket sales yet. That is kind of the point of organizing a conference. You assume some of that risk. It will be a poor conference without attendees (and cancellable, really), but it would be even worse without speakers.
When we put on BarCamps/Winecamps/Web2Open/iPhoneDevCamp/etc., we work for free…and we never collect a profit or salary. Hell, last year at BarCampSF, we ended up coming up short and putting in about $1000 of our own dollars. That sucked, but we knew the risk we were assuming putting it on.
Not saying you should work for free, either. It’s up to you to make a profit, really. But the way you WILL make a profit is to treat everyone associated with this event well…then they will be more than happy to help you promote it and spread the love. Your reputation will be shiny and people will come to support you.
If you make people feel like they are doing you a favor, don’t value their contribution (by covering their base expenses) and spend all of the time wondering how you are going to get your piece of it, you will probably end up in this stressed and alone.
August 31st, 2007 at 7:44 am
Thanks for the kind words – means a lot to us. Apart from the compensation issue, meeting and treating our speakers after the months of planning that go into an event is a huge reward for us, and it’s an honour to have these opportunities to meet up with lots of talented and influential people.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:29 am
Tara, did you know who Eric is before Defrag? He’s been blogging for years & years, has done a lot of stuff with people like Doc Searls and Esther Dyson and Chris Locke, and he’s also put on a few conferences in his day. Your post & follow-on comments suggest he’s just another business guy and/or clueless about how to run a conference. He’s neither, and he’s been proving it since at least the late 90s, when I first became aware of him via Personalization.com. He’s also had a hand ins starting a few businesses, so I think he knows a little about risk.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:34 am
Which, then, leads me to wonder all that much more why he won’t pay for travel expenses for his speakers. The two don’t compute.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Maybe because he’s never done that before and no one has complained? I’ve spoken at tons of conferences and have never been reimbursed for travel except in one case (it was in New Zealand).
You’ve already admitted that you didn’t read the form. Fine. We all make mistakes like that from time to time. But there’s a great deal of distance between that and therefore deciding that the conference organizer has dark motives.
If the two don’t compute, sometimes that means your operating system has a bug.
September 3rd, 2007 at 8:40 am
Well, aren’t we full of our own self importance! To think that someone would ask you to speak and not provide an all-expenses paid trip for you. But I see that, to get your name on the speaking program for events you feel are prestigious or reputation-enhancing (SxSW, Blogher) you don’t mind forgoing payment. There are three possibilities when speaking at a conference:
1) you can have all expenses paid
2) you can get an all-conference pass comped
3) you can actually pay to get in
I’ve done all three. It all depends on how much you care about the topic and the conference and what it’s worth TO YOU to get your message out.
You claim to understand the economics of organizing a conference, yet trash defrag without actually knowing anything about it or its organizers. I was also asked to speak there and had to decline because of a previous commitment. But had the time been available, I would have gone and would have spoken on my own dime. Why? Because its put on by good people, the topic is important and I’d like to spread my ideas to the likely attendees.
Like you, I’m a big fish in a small pond. You need to remember that, when moving to a different pond, even for a visit, it’s just like starting all over again.
If it’s not right for you – for whatever reason – fine. But don’t trash the people who are putting in the effort and don’t denigrate those who do participate.
September 3rd, 2007 at 10:11 am
No, not self important…self-empowered. Mr. Kearns, I would venture a guess that you don’t know me well at all, either, as if you did, you would know that I am careful about giving my time away. These events (blogher and sxswi) are prestigious BECAUSE they are excellent community events and that is why i don’t mind paying for my own travel (as i would go nonetheless).
Now, i am happy for you that you can afford to give so much of your time and money to the ventures of others, but i am an independent consultant who has never had corporate dollars behind me. You make it sound as if asking for my travel expenses paid to Denver is asking someone to pay for a free holiday for me. I can assure you, sir, denver is not my idea of a holiday destination, especially in November…nor is speaking at a conference anything like a holiday. I happen to take such responsibilities very seriously. Like a job.
September 4th, 2007 at 5:07 am
Seeing this a little late, but thought I should give my “+1″ vote to your comments (miss rogue) that Ryan and team are aces in puttin’ on conferences, especially in making their invited speakers feel like it was worth the time. The part I liked the best about the FOWA conf in London early in ‘07 was the incredible talent they attracted as both speakers and attendees… I met an impressive crowd at that event – including you
September 10th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
“…i am an independent consultant who has never had corporate dollars behind me…”
As am I. Almost always, whenever I go to a conference it’s on my own dime. And, like you, I’m an independent consultant. That’s why I consider speaking engagements as an advertising and marketing expense. Its a way to get my name and ideas discussed in a wider community. I would only even consider asking for reimbursement (or more) if the conference were using my name as a lure to attract attendees.
But maybe I’m just not mercenary enough…
September 10th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
mercenary? Heh. We spent over $25,000 last year in travel expenses. And what clients came from those engagements? None, because we are already way too busy (and in demand) to take on any leads.
My marketing budget includes the time and effort I put into the community: advocating microformats, openID, helping others with setting up their coworking spaces, helping out with barcamps, etc. Speaking at conferences is good because it helps spread concepts and helps people in the audience understand what is going on in the tech world right now, but it does very little for my business.
And, Dave, I am in demand. I actually hired an agent to handle the many requests I get to speak…about 2x per month right now. And that agent negotiates fees, which most organizers are happy to pay as they know that i will sell tickets. I wasn’t even going to negotiate my talk at Defrag through my agent, but I did want my airfare and hotel covered. Hardly mercenary. It turned out that on that same day I was being requested to speak at another conference where I’m not only being flown out and put up, but paid anyway. So, it’s probably for the best that Defrag doesn’t reimburse for travel.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:56 am
I’m late coming into this conversation, sorry!
Tara, thanks for your kinds words. We try really hard to treat people like we want to be treated, so it made me smile to see that you felt taken care of
FOWA (Oct 3-5, 2007) is bigger than the Feb event (1500 people) plus an expo hall and three total tracks, so I wasn’t sure if we could cover everyone’s travel expenses (twice the number of speakers).
I regret that decision. I think what we’ll do next time is cut down on the number of speakers so we can still afford to fly everyone and put them up.
Thanks again for the kind words – made my day