Thanks to Noah for a great day at CommunityNext yesterday. For a “kid” (from my perspective, because I met him a couple of years back when he was still in college, I believe), he did a pretty decent job of putting on a conference in a short amount of time. Everything seemed to go smoothly and people were engaged and happy. That is, truly, the goal of any conference.
I’m pretty sure the highlight for the day for nearly everyone there was Jeff and Jake from Threadless. Their no-bull delivery of how they turned a passion/hobby into a sustainable business they can be proud of was pretty amazing. I felt the collective sigh of relief from the community-respect centric camp as they talked. There were many ‘dangerous’ quotes and presentations throughout the day, the ones I know that the commenters who have arrived here over the last couple of posts are expressing their distaste for. I spent more than half of the day cringing. The audience, I guestimated, was more than half filled with people who were asking the question, “How can I use community to make money?” Now, I spoke to the other 40% after my talk and at the after party and it gives me alot of hope to see such a passionate, strong group. I think I’m going to organize a day at Citizen Space where that camp of people can gather and talk about the issues, trade experiences and record them somewhere live for others who can’t make it.
We were incredibly fortunate to have Elisa Camahort come down to Citizen Space on Thursday for a more ‘private’ summit (someone else was paying for lunch, etc.) and she blew us all away with her Blogher experiences. Then, after seeing Jake and Jeff and then Ted and crew from Dogster talk about similar experiences (the parts where online communities can get tricky and grey areas arise), I started thinking about how powerful it would be to get everyone together in a room to trade experiences. Perhaps even set down some rough “guidelines” - not in the dangerous, “If you do this, you will get rich” way, but in the “If you are lucky enough to have people give a damn about what you are building, sometimes awkward situations arise, so how have others dealt with them so you don’t make too many early-on mistakes?” kind of way.
Most likely this will happen when I return from my upcoming London/Paris/Austin/Las Vegas whirlwind.
I still plan to continue to post over at the Future of Communities blog as well, but I really think the conversation needs to happen at a more grassroots level. I think the reason I still feel a little reticent about it has to do with my overall struggle with all of this subject matter. Namely: How the hell do I balance my desire to stay grassroots and true to my own message with starting to be part of these conferences and organizations that promote a level of community engagement that I rail against? Do I REALLY see my presence there as helpful? As the ‘voice of reason’ or some other unlikely bull? Or am I merely a token female/rogue?
Quick history of feminism comparison to what I’m trying to say (excuse me if it’s weak, I’m recalling it from my studies from over 10 years ago and my own way of understanding it):
So, within the larger arena of gender politics, there are two quite oppositional ‘camps’ of feminism (although there are dozens): Radical Feminism and Liberal Feminism.
Radical feminists say that men and women are NOT the same, that we need to work to validate ‘feminine’ stuff like emotion, feeling, family, connection, etc. Radical feminists would say that the core issue is not that women and men need to be equal, but that masculine characteristics have been long celebrated and validated, which is both harmful and limiting to our human experience. In this viewpoint, ’soft sciences and human relationships’ would be celebrated as much as the ‘facts and hard science’. ‘Girly Stuff’ would not be an insult.
Liberal feminists say that men and women are equal and are both capable of the same damn things. Liberal feminism was strong in the 80’s and very much apparent in movies like Working Girl. Liberal feminists would say that the core issue is that men have artificially created the ‘glass ceiling’ and we, as women, need to be stronger and work a little harder until we gain the respect and can be seen as equals while men are educated and see that the addition to women in the workplace doesn’t change anything. Liberal feminists often work at a policy level.
The vote was won through a Liberal feminist argument. Affirmative action was a victory of the Liberal feminist movement. Meanwhile, Girl Power, Blogher type organizations and woman-focused events like the Lilith Fair are more into the camp of the Radical feminist movement.
Liberal feminist = policy level
Radical feminist = grassroots level
Both have made a world of difference. Both are necessary to lead to change. However, the more visible of the two, I believe, is Liberal feminism. It works WITH current paradigms to create a shift. The most famous feminists in history have been more Liberal feminists. And the more grassroots Radical feminism? Well, it seems to be incredibly susceptible to commercialization because it tends to gather women successfully.
Still…I see a political climate, created by the proliferation of self-publishing, where the grassroots can start to really kick ass.
So…what the hell does this mean for what I’m struggling with? Glad you asked. 
Well, by being part of organizations that proclaim their ‘authority’ over Community or otherwise vulnerable terms (because, as a ‘community mark‘, they are not strongly defined or policed), or speaking at a conference that promises to inform paying delegates of how they can ‘Build, Grow, Monetize’ (’cause, really, that seems to be what they want), I feel really, really queasy while feeling like, well, maybe if I play along with the rules of the system, dress the part, speak the part and insert myself in that ‘authoritative’ position, then I’ll be able to make a difference….if I just make my message more comfortable…more pallatible…
gah!
Many of the commenters on this blog over the last week have expressed alot of concern towards my approach and the growing visibility of it. I know that many of those commenters have been part of this grassroots effort to can the bull for many more years than I have and deserve to be up on that stage more than I do. Many of them have also been very vocal about how they don’t think that is a good use of their energy.
Public? Yes. Changing anything? No. Reifying the status quo? Probably.
Do we just lend power to those already in power by continuing to play by their rules? By wanting to be in that ‘club’, getting their respect, do we actually do anyone any good? I don’t know. I know that all angles are necessary for change. And I don’t know what ’side’ I belong on…but I do know that this struggle is the best thing I have to offer anyone.
Personally, I think I have loads to learn from the Threadless approach to awesomeness.
20 Comments
I am mostly in the grassroots camp. Something about organization just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it is the tendency to start looking and sounding like whoever/whatever you stand against. Can you join organizations without ever holding office? That would be ideal, but in the end, there is something to be said about policy. Someone needs to make it and if all the good ones stay in the background, you’re back at square one.
Guess I am not making sense either.
LOL. I’m glad! This is a tricky subject and I’m sure there are many with strong opinions. Personally, I think someone who is a bit ambiguous about it probably has the most correct answer.
Even here (down down in the South) there´s something about ultra confidence and security that scares me.
I like your “uncommon marketing” site. It´s plenty of search.
(Thanks so much for your comment. Different vocabulary illuminates different styles for approaching adversity, that’s for sure.)
So far as radical versus liberal, that’s not always clear cut over time either, seems to me. Especially since most of the time we have to work within liberal institutions (like for-profit businesses and electoral politics) even when we feel more radical than what we find around us. (This is where mobilizing feedback and interactive community tools is either a cheap trick or a powerful grassradical corrective vector. Or some of each, depending on the day).
You are touching on some of my mild discontent and cringes at the conference, which I mostly enjoyed. I do care intently about how to pay the bills and salaries at the community platform I work on, of course. Still, the talking to start-ups sensibility gets downright gold-rushy at times, and there seemed to be more slogans than useful case studies from people working in the field, or meaty affirming anecdotes from the trenches. Threadless and their awesomeness chart was wonderful in part because they did tell about their real choices and projects that flopped, too.
I’m sure there are a lot of different ways to increase the proportions of radical grit and heart in the mix for the next Community Next, so that they — uh, hopefully we — get an even better stew for CN2. It has a solid chance to be valuable to a wide range of people.
Tara,
(1) It was great to meet you at the conference, and I’m glad we had a second before lunch to chat. I appreciate your time and thoughts.
(2) I’d love to know what happens with your Citizen Space meeting. I doubt I could attend in person, so I definitely want to see those notes when it does. Please let us all know when it happens and the results.
Thanks again!
Tara,
First let me say I have nothing to do with marketing, at least not directly (I’m a web designer/developer). I read your blog none-the-less as I find it a fascinating source of provocative articles and ideas (You’ve done what my marketing lecturers could not and made marketing an interesting topic for me!).
I think that to achieve what you have set out to do, you need to have that influence. The reach that becoming part of these events and such can provide you with won’t change what you believe as a person.
At a grass roots level you stand less chance of making those paradigm shifts on a wider scale. I think that it would be impossible to change some people’s view of community in an instant but by attending these things you can get your message across little by little.
As for being liberal or radical, who says you have to be one or the other? You can be primarily radical most of the time and liberal when the need arises to get your message across. Yes, a lot of people would like people to be clearly categorized but life isn’t that way and neither are people. Actually I’m glad because it makes people and life so much more interesting. We expect one thing and get something else that is pleasantly surprising. If anything, just stick to your principles or core values, no matter what you do (liberal, radical, or a mixture of both).
Totally agree with you about feeling queasy with the “Build, Grow, Monetize” approach. It should be “Build, Grow, Sustain”. Growing a community is about achieving a sustainable balance or harmony, it isn’t about selling out for quick cash or getting rich off the hard work of others. If anything, it is those companies that give back to the community to help achieve sustainable growth that will be the ones that will succeed over others. That’s why you’re hearing a lot of content driven social services looking at ways to reward their users for all of the great content they are creating, so that these users can hopefully slowly transition to doing what they love and get paid for it in return. In effect, the greater the sharing of money to the whole community, so everyone benefits, the greater the community will be.
As for your comments over the past week or so, I think you know deep down inside of you what feels right, just as these other people do, it’s just that you’re having a difficult time putting these feelings into words. I’m no different and it frustrates me when I intuitively ‘feel’ the knowledge, yet have a difficult time relaying it to others. Like myself though, you have to realize that you’re an explorer. You’re breaking trails and seeing things on the edge of the unknown that you have to go back and explain to others. It’s kind of like the difficulty that an isolated jungle tribesman has when seeing an airplane for the first time. He struggles with the words to use to describe it to others back in his village, so that they can share in the experience and wonder of it as well.
As for getting respect from others, I think we should be trying to respect ourselves first and foremost. You shouldn’t be “fitting” yourself into a designated side but instead following what feels right to you inside, even if it means creating a whole new ’side’ of your own.
Thanks! Security is over-rated.
Absolutely!
I, too, mostly enjoyed CommunityNext and thought Noah did a really great job. I suppose it’s necessary at this point to have the dichotomy of ‘monetize’ vs. ‘nurture’ up there to say, “Okay, so go for it…let’s see what works.” I really believe that the nurture will work in the end, then the monetizers will have to change.
But maybe I’m just too hopeful.
Will do! Maybe we can plan it for a time you get to come down?
Ping me if you are heading this way.
Hey Mark,
I think you are right…it’s not a this way or that way. I really think both are necessary, too.
Thanks for your support and feedback.
Yay Nolind!
Man, it’s awesome to hear that I’m not the only one who is struggling with this (especially coming from you!). Like I said to Mark (above), I agree that it isn’t one or the other. It’s difficult to balance both, but putting yourself firmly in one camp or the other can be divisive.
I love the whole “explorer” metaphor. Mind if I use that? I’m thinking of changing my blog bi-line…:)
“It’s difficult to balance both, but putting yourself firmly in one camp or the other can be divisive.”
Hehe, picking an established side in a fight is easy. Trying to bring both sides together in mutual understanding and respect of their differences is what’s hard. If we want to make the world a better place, we need to stop putting up walls between our differences and start building bridges between our commonalities. That’s what I believe communities can and should do.
“I love the whole “explorer” metaphor. Mind if I use that?”
Not at all, primarily because I got the idea from somewhere else myself and I liked the feeling of it as well. I think it was either from Margaret J. Wheatley’s Finding Our Way: Leadership For An Uncertain Time or David Holmgren’s Permaculture: Principles & Pathways Beyond Sustainability. Both are excellent books if you haven’t read them yet. Even after reading them myself, I continually refer back to them as resource guides on community development.
I think the thing with community is to try and make it a “customer first” thing. I don’t think there’s a lot of harm in businesses trying to make money from “community” as long as they are genuine about what they’re doing & actually do something when conversing with a customer (getting feedback, etc.)
Many of the bloggers that I read have self-interests at heart as well ; some have books that they sell, some are public (paid) speakers on these topics, etc. Does this cause a conflict of interest?
What I don’t like about the topic of community is that a lot of people out there promoting it probably haven’t really engaged in communities as a customer advocate (fixing/identifying problems, communicating to customers, etc.). I also don’t like how people are trying to break it down into something that can be strategized and/or something that requires an action plan.
Even if I don’t always agree with what you say, I do have a great deal of respect for you trying to shake things up a little:)
Your own, honest, struggle on the subject of feminism may indicate that society at large has the same confusion. Personally, I think the under 30 generations no longer give a toot about what your gender is but greatly appreciate any body parts you might expose
Oh wait, the later may have always been true!
Be yourself; but also make sure your arguments are well structured and make sense. A study of anthropology might actually help you frame your thoughts on cyberspace communities; just keep in mind that while the same positive, touchy feely, aspects of real world communities also apply to cyber ones (common need, cause, purpose, group-likeness, individual empowerment, identification, etc.); so do the negative, nasty and destructive aspects (common need, cause, purpose, group-likeness, individual empowerment, identification, etc.) ….
We are social animals and we (general population) hardly understand our own group needs; though, there is a lot of material written on the subject of social dynamics.
I am weary of “community” because I’ve seen how negative it always ends up; but I also know from my own self-imposed hermitness (a near death hearth attack and total disappointment in all people — both of which I’m still recovering from) that it is near impossible to isolate oneself without self destruction.
Whatever you do, try to keep in mind that “community” and “sacredness” aren’t the same thing.
As for “making money from community”, I think that is the wrong approach; rather, why not make a community where members can, each at their own abilities, have opportunity [to make money or otherwise]? Think about the framing difference.
“As for “making money from community”, I think that is the wrong approach; rather, why not make a community where members can, each at their own abilities, have opportunity [to make money or otherwise]? Think about the framing difference.”
I think this already happens to a large degree (people share business tips, ideas, etc. without the company framing it). A very solid example of this can be found on the eBay boards. But I can assure you that the company has a community because they can learn from them as well, which helps the company make money and address business issues.
Optimal: Companies wouldn’t use companies solely for money.
Practical: Companies will “leverage” community in some way; a company has to dedicate resources to support a community, after all (customer support, moderation, providing the software platform(s). I’ve rarely seen a company do something because it is “the right thing to do” w/o some sort of value going back to the company (feedback, loyalty, retention, etc.).
Damon, I have a feeling you’ll really hate this…
http://www.communityguy.com/sites/doingtoday/index.cfm/id/Bandwagon_has_arrived_Please
Lord knows I do.
How the hell do I balance my desire to stay grassroots and true to my own message with starting to be part of these conferences and organizations that promote a level of community engagement that I rail against? Do I REALLY see my presence there as helpful? As the ‘voice of reason’ or some other unlikely bull? Or am I merely a token female/rogue?
Sometimes we first have to define for ourselves the type of woman we want to be. That type of woman may not fit any particular feminist or old school paradigm. The type of women we are may be someone we never knew…nor could imagine
So, nothing wrong w/being the token female. all depends on how you do it and if you are comfortable with that role. I have my own ways…which right now I’m comfortable with (as I’m not the greatest public speaker. I’m better at “holding court.”)
To stay grassroots: mingle with grassroots. never forget about the community you live in and get involved there too–lots of communities have grassroots orgs that need volunteers. I’m an assoc. director of a local film festival and also doing some press release writing for a small local arts org and possibly something w/ a streaming radio station–even though I still seem to show up as a “presence” at cons (12 total in 18 months–will be at Beyond Broadcast at MIT this weekend with mini entorage.)
How much you need to be grassroots, and how much you need to speak to them, and be understood, will teach you a lot.
Always remember, too, that water will seek its own level. You will go as far as you are able, then you will stumble and things will even out. You will, in time, learn to balance making money with your ideals. One may win over the other, but only time will tell you the answer.
Thank you so much for speaking! I know I had fun coordinating possibly the one and only Community Next.
It was a pleasure meeting you at the conference. I enjoyed your presentation on communities and thought it complimented the Threadless presentation very nicely. Your presentation certainly got me buzzing that numbers are not the most important thing when measuring the health of a community, but fun and awesomeness are!
I would love to be part of your community day that is passionate about making a difference and being awesome. Let me know how I can help.
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[...] A touch of love… Published 14 February 07 08:18 AM I love recap posts. For those of us who weren’t able to attend the CommunityNext summit, I found recaps by Anastasia, Lee and Tara quite useful. I personally find it helpful to see how others view the same content — that alone makes it that much more insightful and authentic. Loosely related…it was great to see folks point out that the community space is not at all monolithic and there are multiple community camps. On the one hand, you have those who more or less set out to build a community, and if money happens, then it’s a good thing. Others set out with money as the primary driver (either making it or saving it) by using a community. As similar as these may sound, they represent two very different philosophies. To make things more complicated, sometimes you may encounter situations where the two different camps are working on the same project! Having worked in both camps from time to time, I would like to suggest that there is yet another piece to this matrix — the people who build the tools used in community. Think of this as the Belgium of the community space. It doesn’t fit into either camp perfectly, and instead prefers to remain neutral, and flexible so it can benefit the masses. I don’t believe I belong to any one camp, but rather I tend to float between, adapting to the needs and the circumstances of the day. If pressed though, I’d say that I lean more towards the focus on the community first. What about you? What’s your community philosophy? Heh — I just noticed that I started and ended this particular post with love — explicitly in the first sentence, and implicitly in the last with philosophy. While I’m at it, here’s another loving post from the Windows Live QnA Team by b2ix Filed under: community [...]